Singing Derrick Jensen and The Frogs: Classic Study
by Richard Oxman

I taught Aristophanes' work for over three decades in various institutions of so-called higher education, and I'm here to tell you that Derrick Jensen's frogs outshine the highly-touted Greek's play (with the amphibian title). Why? How? You'll have to plow through the interview below from beginning to end, I'm afraid, to have a shot at understanding.

And I mean that last remark in two senses.

This will be a long piece. And an *ongoing interview* of sorts, as I plan to add to it whilst I transcribe bits and pieces of my April 12th exchange with Derrick daily. Once I complete it all, I'll send it out for posting elsewhere.

But because it's me directing the dialogue, the same grumpy old *glitches* with their grudges won't post it. How will they be able to look at themselves in the Left Wing Mirror passing on singular Derrick Jensen material? Same way as usual, I guess.

http://www.altpr.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid =148&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
is the Alternative Press Review posting of an -early- Derrick Jensen focus of mine. A wonderful ending with a quote from Millay, if I may say so. An appropriate introduction to the interview-for some.

If anyone wants other DJ-related (Oxman) items, let me know; it would be an honor to do the search. Tried to find the Press Action version of the APR article in the PA Archives –somewhat different, as I remember (and *better*)– but it seems as if my early work on that site has been erased. I'm in the process of confirming that-and –if that's the case– determining why.

On Earth and in Heaven-*why*. I'll keep anyone interested updated on what I learn.

In the meantime, for those who are not meant to use the above link as an introduction to this DJ interview-I give you http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/endgame12302005/. It's probably more germane as a lead in to our back and forth; the spotlight is on *ENDGAME*, Derrick's next-to-be-released published work. June is the projected month now, I believe.

Don't miss it. Don't miss it. Bliss out on it, if you want something truly fresh. A slap in the face with eye contact that'll lull you to sleep so well-you'll finally be prepared to do something worthwhile when you wake up. And it will wake you up if you're not too far gone already.

Most of us are enveloped by those who are too far gone. This interview turned out to put some of those surrounding us into perspective whilst putting us in touch with something fundamentally needed by us all.

That's my take. I have regrets 'bout dropping the ball here and there, but none of it is fake. And, thanks to Derrick, you'll see-I have the invite to bite again, to taste of what's authentic, to ask him questions again –to interact– in the future.

It's a whole different ball of wax –representing, in retrospect, two very different ways of living– than what I produced when I got together with Joe Bageant at http://www.cjonline.org/oxmanBageant1.htm and http://www.cjonline.org/oxmanBageant2.htm.

This interview opens with my telling Sylvie to hold off on my dinner, as I go upstairs to welcome Derrick back from his recent tour-which took him through Canada, among other places (See www.derrickjensen.org).

ROX: So-how was the trip?

DJ: It was okay. I mean, it started off as a-as a-as a pretty much a nightmare, um-23 hours in airports-then they lost my luggage-and then the first place I went they never paid me the money they said they'd pay me, and so on, but after that it was good.

ROX: Oh, wow. Um. Okay. Um. You feelin' okay?

DJ: Um-I'm okay-okay. Um-.

ROX: (cutting off some DJ mumbling) You don't like to complain. Yeah. Let me just ask a few questions, okay? Let you get some rest, whatever. When did you get in?

DJ: I got in last night.

ROX: Unhuh. Okay. Mmm, okay-so here goes. I just have a few questions I want to ask-I can take on-and make some hay out of this. Okay, first question is: What can be done by a given individual if he/she wants to transcend belief systems of her/his culture? (Pause) I can repeat that if you want.

DJ: Mmm. (Pause) Shit, I have a quote about that. I-.

ROX: Yeah, you do, and that's where I got it. There's just a quote-I think-at the beginning-saying something to the effect-that that's necessary, y'know.

DJ: I think one of the epigraphs for the-in the first volume. (Pause) Okay, so what should we do-?

ROX: Yeah. So y'know-okay-a given individual, y'know, is stuck-they are where they are where they are-.

DJ: I think one of the things that is really important for people to do is to stop paying attention to so many experts. Just like I always say-almost always say at the end of my talks-when people ask me what to do-I always say, -Don't listen to me.- (Pause) Because we don't just need yet another expert, another savior that's gonna figure things out. I mean, that's-that's been one of the real problems with this culture for-since the beginning, relying on-whether it's the Divine Right of Kings who have a direct line to God, or whether it's the priests that have a direct line to God, or whether it's the scientists who have a direct line to God, or whether it's the people who write books-have a direct line to God. I mean, what people, I think, really need to do is to begin to trust their own experience. And to (pause), y'know it's crazy-this is supposed to be the best system that's ever been had-that's ever been, but-when you ask people if they like their jobs-most-y'know, about 90% of the people say, -No.- And-what would happen if they started trusting their own experience? Started-I just heard this story a couple of days ago-somewhere on the road-somebody was saying that-that somebody in her office whenever she wants to keep on her desk a-uh-copy of like how much it costs to send her kid to school and how much her rent is-something, I don't know-and top of that is a big roll of duck tape-and she says explicitly that every time she wants to speak out about something in her office-like speak out against an injustice-or speak out against (pause), y'know-I think it was a Public Defender's office. If there's something going against what she believes in then what she does is she forces herself to look at the checks there-so that has her keep her mouth shut. So I think that one of the really important things is to start paying attention to our bodies, and to start paying attention to the land where we live. I mean, I mean-I saw this editorial cartoon probably ten or twelve years ago about these people stuck in a traffic jam, and one person says to the other, -Those damn environmentalists want to ruin our lifestyle.- (Pause) And we don't pay attention to that. We don't-. It's like-there's a great line by R.D. Laing which-I can get the exact line for you if you want–In order to-.- (Inaudible)

*Derrick offers to bring it up on his computer, I believe, and I grunt easy approval.*

(Pause)

DJ: Oh, it's not in this book. Somewhere I've quoted R.D. Laing where he talks about-y'know, basically in order to maintain-the Military Industrial Complex we've had to destroy our ability to-to destroy the ability to see to the end of our nose-or to imagine anything beyond it, and without the most thorough brainwashing -ever -y'know, children would see through our dirty tricks, and would understand how bad all this is-and so you have to catch them really early-and (inaudible)- like he says, turn them into imbeciles- preferably like ourselves -with high IQs-.

ROX: (*interrupting*) Yeah, I guess what I was addressing, -very good- once they become imbeciles, and they end up in your audience-okay -and they're there -and you're striking a chord -something is resonating, okay -

DJ: (*jumping in, inaudible*) want them to start-paying attention to themselves, pay attention to their own lives -and begin to unravel what's in their own hearts, and to also -hmm- to also -hmm - listen to the land where they live, and to -to recognize that -well, I guess that's the next step, but, but -at some point begin to recognize that without -without a land base you don't have anything, but that's-that's probably another question.

(Pause)

ROX: Whoa- whoa-. Take me to the isolated situation where, y'know, somebody walks -'cause you often talk about, yourself -y'know- asking elements in nature, creatures in nature, y'know -what they want. Y'know- let's take someone from one of your audiences who -who feels uncomfortable in nature -wants to go out and, say, ask the tree -ask the salmon -something in nature-. Can you just take us through a couple of steps -about- y'know, to help the person who feels really uncomfortable -taking those few steps few steps outside?

DJ: Well, what I always say to them first is I ask them if they've ever made love, and usually they say -yes,- and then I say, -Okay, so-when you made love, how did you know what your partner wanted you to do? Did your partner say 'Put this here, do that'?- -and almost always they say -No.- Y'know, instead, they listened, and they paid attention, and they felt it. And-um, and so that's-that's really the first step. And the next thing I say is –changing topics entirely– I'd say, -Have you ever had a dog or a cat or something?- And -If you've ever had a dog, how'd the dog let you know when its food dish is empty?- My dog here, y'know- he stares at the dish, he stares at me, he stares at the dish, he stares at me; I mean, he's very effectively communicated. And then (pause) and then, of course, the question comes up of-projection. That -how do I know that what I'm hearing is what I'm hearing. And not what I'm making up. But, of course, that's a huge question. That's a huge question in any relationship. Where-where -where -one person-. I mean, one good example of that -I'll give two examples of that real fast -. One was- y'know, I don't have a washing machine here, and I was doing my laundry at my mom's house, and one day I was folding clothes -er- folding towels, and she said, -You want some help?- And -that's what she said -and what I heard was -You're doing it wrong.- And so I gave some sort of snippy -No- (inaudible) -said -Fine- -and sat back down. But the real exchange was -You want some help?- And- no, but I projected all this other stuff. We do that all the time. Or another example that isn't so much projection as just miscommunication -it was pretty funny. (Pause) After one of the talks that I just did -two of my demands when I go onstage are -one, I don't want to stand, and, two, I don't want to hold a microphone. And when I told this guy my demands I accidentally put them in the other order, and I said, -I don't want to hold the microphone, and I don't wanna stand.-

*Hearty laugh from The Ox*

And- he didn't say a word. (*Inaudible*) -hours later he came up to me and said, -We're having a problem. 'Cause- I don't know what you want, and I can't levitate the microphone.-

*Huge silent laughter from The Ox*

So- we both speak English. So very clearly there was a significant miscommunication. And then -okay -so now that's fine. Now let's say we have instead two humans, one of whom speaks English, one of whom speaks only French. They begin to- they have some sort of conversation. And- I mean, how much more projection is going to take place there? And then the next step is -we have a human and a chimpanzee, and they both speak primate, but one speaks Human and one speaks Chimp, and then there are going to be more projections. And then- now we have the dog sitting here- walking over to me, wagging his tail. I know what he wants; he wants to be petted. And-um-so-but- there's gonna be more room for projection because we have- one of us speaks -we both speak Mammal, but one of us speaks Primate, and the other speaks Canine. How much more projection will there be if one of us is a lizard? There's gonna be more room for projection. And then how much projection- room for projection will there be if one of us speaks Tree? And so my point is that on one level there's more and more room for projection, of course. And we need to really pay attention to that.

MORE TO COME FROM THIS INTERVIEW SHORTLY-.

Update on April 14th: Perhaps we should pause here, and ask those who are reading this to let me know if they want me to continue with transcribing this exchange. It’ll be very interesting to see what kind of response is generated by my request for feedback.